Gotnext Women's Basketball Boards

cbibat · Joined: 14 Jun 2002 Posts: 232

In honor of MB's dislike of new threads and because this topic popped on several different threads below...... just wanted to ask

:?: We're 4-2, have beat teams we weren't supposed to beat, have actually looked like a team on the court......

Why do we need to change coaches? (really, I'm seriously asking) Why is Cooper doing a 'bad' job?

mb · Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2002 6:08 pm Post subject:

Since I don't like new threads, and this received little response at AZCnetral, here's my post from there:

Mercury organization to do list:

Tell Brandy we'll be there for her and recommend some therapists.

Activate Veal and move the acting PG's to SG's.

Allow Coop ample time to get acquainted with her newest family members.

Sign Carrie Graf as head coach for next season.

Organize fan field trip to Seattle.

Give the media as much recognition as possible, esp Jeff Metcalfe and Jeff Simon.

Hire mb as assistant GM.

Afetr some responses, I'll answer cbibat's question more directly.

bballprincess31 · Joined: 13 Jun 2002 Posts: 40

It's not that I think we are doing a bad job, we are doing a good job. I just don't like Cynthia Cooper. Plain and simple. However, she is doing better than last year.

eaction83 · Joined: 14 Jun 2002 Posts: 130 Location: Fremont, CA

Hey, I've been wondering the same thing. It can't be from a W-L perspective, because last year's team really pretty much overacheived by winning 13 games and this year's is off to a very good start. I don't know that many coaches could have done better than 17-20 with what she's had to work with so far. But I don't have the advantage (or occasionally the disadvantage) of being up close and personal to see how she handles the things that don't appear on a stat sheet, and that's where a lot of the criticism we see on the message board seems to be directed.

caune · Joined: 12 Jun 2002 Posts: 1562 Location: Phoenix

I'm all for Coop taking time with her children but I am inclined to point out that we really need her. This team is overachieving at this point and I think it's because someones going to kick their ass if they don't perform. It's not a style I am fond of, but its working. and I certainly don't agree with Cynthias decisions at times but she is closer to the situation then we are.
I think we would have won that game last night if Coop were coaching because she would have woke the team up sooner :)

gia · Guest

They overachieved in spite of Cooper, not because of her.

Team chemistry was a mess. She alienated and lost a lot of respect from most of the team. She never used Graffy's experience and knowledge to her advantage........actually I think she pretty much ignored her. And I personally think she stifled Veal's growth as a player. As I've stated before, I think she's an anti-Aussite ;)

This season they are doing better, chemistry-wise and playing-wise. It has less to do with Cooper and more to do with 1) Linda Sharp, 2) Jenn Gillom's determination to go out on a winning note, 3).......?

cbibat · Guest Joined: 14 Jun 2002 Posts: 232

MB - you didn't answer my question - why do you think Cooper should not be coach? Plus, I haven't been that impressed with Graf as a coach, either when she was under Miller or last year. Maybe it's just her bad luck but Miller sure didn't appear to listen to her either and there wasn't any noticeable improvement when Miller was out and Graf coached.

Gia - I agree that chemistry last year was a mess. But more than once Timms talked about when they followed the game plan they did well, Gillom also talked about the difference in having a new coach, the difference between Miller and Cooper - with Miller they just went out and played, Cooper actually had a game plan and that it was a hard adjustment.

This team has a lot of new players, those not tainted by the past. There is clearly a different chemistry this year. Why can't Cooper get credit for some of that? This team is different. I don't know how we'll utlimately end up but the games are far more entertaining, fun to watch and, of course because its the Merc, heart stopping.

I can understand people just not liking her, but I think the jury's still out on Cooper as a coach.

Vladimir Taltos · Guest Joined: 15 Jun 2002 Posts: 72

Do we need a new coach? No.

Cynthia is doing a good job, at least better then last year, which is the point. Bad coaches never change nor learn. She has shown the capabiity to do both and the team has taken steps forward. That means you keep the experiment going, because you are getting better. To remove her is to take an unknown direction with unknown results and consequences. With Cindy, somethings ARE going right, for now.

I think the problem w/the chemistry and energy is simple. Its #23. That distraction screwed the team up last year, and that crap on the end of the bench Friday night was the same if not worse then last year. We get to blame Brandy AGAIN, with the exception that there's enough talent to have ridden through some of her storm clouds.

Lose Brandy, give coach a chance...
VT

gia · Guest

Maybe the question asked should have been - Do we want a new coach? ;)

Cooper's contract is up at the end of this season. Should they re-sign her? (would she even stay?) If not, who should they hire? Linda Sharp? The Gillom Sisters? :) :)

Keegan · Guest Joined: 13 Jun 2002 Posts: 977

A pack of platypuses?

Sorry had to put that in... imagine LJ's shock if she saw THEM coaching the Mercury ;)

SportsFan48 · Guest Joined: 12 Jun 2002 Posts: 1136

This is a good debate and should prove even more interesting the season progresses. I am for giving Cooper the benefit of the doubt. I, like most others, don't like her styling of yelling at the players. However, it has seemed to be effective. I am not totally convinced it is the ONLY way to be effective. But I also believe she is getting better. She doesn't seem AS to panic as much in her substitutions and other decisions, but she definitely has a lot to learn.

The team was definitely NOT in harmony the first half of the game Friday. I don't remember when I have seen the players yelling at each other on the court like I saw then. I think the biggest reason for that was Brandy. I have been in favor of giving her a chance as well, but she has played her trump card and should be shuffled to the bottom of the deck.

Dunkin' Dan · Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2002 7:29 pm Post subject:

Well to me, a good people person will know who will respond to yelling and who won't. I've got nothing against the actual outbursts, but only if they're directed appropriately.

Players aren't *that* stupid, and most times they know when they've stuffed-up, and instead of the "what the f*** were you thinking!!!!" approach maybe a calm "next time, how about you do this instead" message might have a better impact.

Basketball is still very much a mental game, and the importance of having your players focussed and in the right frame of mind should not be underestimated.

Anyway I'll be interested to see how the next few weeks pan out. We've done OK so far, but now comes the real test for the players & coaching staff. At the All-Star break, which is just after our nightmare road stretch, is probably when we'll see a clearer picture.

mb · Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2002 7:54 pm Post subject:

This is my response to a topic on another board, yet seems appropriate here:

Coop was hired for her name. As was Miller. Doesn't look like Coop's name is putting the fans in the seats. As stated before, I support whoever coaches the team. As players the aforementioned gained my respect.

Nancy Lieberman-Cline...it was good we didn't hire her. Another story, already discussed on this and other boards, by people much more in the know than I. Would like to see her as a special consultant to Val Akerman though.

While her record filling in for Miller wasn't great, Carrie Graf is an 83% winning coach. If we want a coach who has coaching skills, who demands fundamentals and team ball, who gains players respect and can motivate them without tirades or theatrics; she was our choice.

She will be a successful WNBA head coach. We may have missed an opportunity. She should have been hired when Coop was.

Seth has made good decisions and bad ones. After all the criticism of trading Pettis and the draft pick...it was a great move!!! Grubin and Reid are doing very well.

The organization seems slow to make decisions. The Miller situation (team chemistry) was allowed to linger. Brandy is being allowed to linger. Veal herself isn't told of their intentions.

Three more practices, right Seth?

Perhaps monetary reasons influence decisions. Perhaps some hands are tied. The next couple weeks will answer many questions about our team, its coach, the management.

GO MERCURY, my support is there regardless.

gia · Guest

Well if she's yelling now, do you think the yelling is going to be more or less frequent when she's up all night with twins? ;)

It's only a matter of time until someone ends up on the receiving end of the coach's lack of sleep combined with an errant pass. :shock:

mb · Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2002 5:28 pm Post subject:

Just for cbibat: :evil: :evil: :evil: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

A message I posted to another forum:

Coop has done a better job this year than last. With many others I wish her success. Yes, she was a great player. No, she is not a great coach...yet.

A quote from another board: "they are winning in spite of her, not because of her."

To quote the AZRepublic: "their record may be more due to a favorable schedule..."

Yelling at a player or ref is fine, yet there should be limits. Attending all the games, sometimes I wish to watch the tape of a tv game. Starting to watch one of the earlier games, I had to stop the tape 'cause I could wath Copp's tirade at Moises any longer. It was a turnover...you'd have thought she knocked over a grandmother, stole candy from a baby, and spit on the President.

While I respect her confidence, I don't like her arrogance.

Also, she sees the game as a player, not a coach. She expect players to be able to do what she could...obviously high expectations.

Another thing that turned fans off was her quick from Timmsy's last game. She didn't even stick around to celebrate Michele's retirement.

Hopefully she will continue to learn as a coach and get to the same level she did as a player. That is a long way off for now.

mb · Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2002 5:30 pm Post subject:

Forgot to mention:

While improving, her substitutions and time outs are erratic at best.

capsman · Guest Joined: 14 Jun 2002 Posts: 31

Coopers ability as a player is well documented. So is her inability to be a team player. She's carried that into her coaching career. I don't believe her ego can let her trust any of her players enough to get the job done. That's evident from her sporadic substitutions. If players know they'll get dragged after one mistake, the team will disintigrate. Simple!

Let her go back to playing......for someone else!! :wink: :wink:

cbibat · Guest Joined: 14 Jun 2002 Posts: 232

Were Sharp's substitutions any better the last 2 games? Last game I thought she was running a turnstile - lots of people in and out. Maybe its a Cooper/Sharp thing......

thanks mb.... have a question..... read your posts on the other boards. do you write them down and then post 3 times or do you cut and paste?

A common thread through all the discussion about Cooper as a coach is that people generally respect her as a player, acknowledge her as a great player..... takes years to hone those skills, which she did primarily overseas, so we got to see the finished product.

MB, you may have hit on a point - "she's not a great coach... yet" Are we unwittingly expecting her to be a great coach right out of the blocks, because she was a great player? No one ever claimed she was a great coach going in, not even her... most people felt she would need a number of seasons to really become a good coach. Why are we only begrudgingly giving her that?

gia · Guest

cbibat wrote: Were Sharp's substitutions any better the last 2 games? Last game I thought she was running a turnstile

I was fond of the turnstile thing last game. It was good to see everyone in the game and see the different combos that worked...when something didnt work it was rectified quickly.

I almost cried though when I saw Vealy unwrapping her knee braces with a minute or two left in the game. No Veal today :(

cbibat wrote: most people felt she would need a number of seasons to really become a good coach. Why are we only begrudgingly giving her that?

I, for one, hope that number of seasons = 2. The experiment didn't work. There are not more asses in the seats because of the name they hired, there are less. True for most teams in the league I'm sure, but if they had an experienced coach last season, they most likely would have had a better record, and that would have equated to less people cancelling their season tickets.

Just about everyone I know who did not renew more or less said it wasn't fun anymore.....citing Cooper as coach and the horrible season. Most would NOT have renewed prior to last season if they new ahead of time that Cooper was going to be hired, however the announcement was orchestrated (in my opinion) to come after the deadline for renewals

Keegan · Guest Joined: 13 Jun 2002 Posts: 977

I repeat... a pack of platypuses :D

cbibat · Guest Joined: 14 Jun 2002 Posts: 232

:idea: click, click, click..... Gia, now I hear what you're saying. Wasn't associating the 'name' draw issue with the coaching issue. Last year the boards were rife with Miller/Cooper comparisions.... I just wonder if in the final analysis the 'reason', or at least one of them, Coop was hired - name recognition - has backfired. Firstly, any coach following Miller would have a hard time, Miller was clearly a draw. Secondly, I'm not convinced that we would have had a better record last year - the WNBA is littered with coaching changes where both coaches had credentials but couldn't get the wins. It seems a key issue is that Cooper's popularity as a player doesn't necessarily play outside Houston. Fans may respect her talent, but don't 'have' to like her. I have a friend that sits about 3 rows behind the Merc bench and she has told me that a large number of those sitting around her do not like Coop and are very verbal about it - they don't cheer the Merc, they boo Coop (which makes me wonder why they're there, but hey to each their own)

So... my question is this - if Cooper hasn't been the magnet to keep fans there, but we're playing better this yr, the team seems to be responding to her better and working more as a team - do you not renew the contract because of the fans or do you renew the contract to continue to build and maintain consistency for the future?

mb · Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2002 9:31 am Post subject:

Great question cbibat. This has turned into a good discussion.
More thoughts later. 8)

gia · Guest

I'll concede that we may not have had a better record with an experienced coach, BUT, I believe the team would have had better chemistry if they had a coach who knew how to gain and give respect. A coach has to have players WANT to play for them and buy into what they're selling.

Let's face it, Cooper caused personality/respect issues. She was abrasive and couldn't communicate appropriately. Being an experienced coach not only means knowing the game, it also means knowing how to treat, communicate, and respect your team. When Brandy-Part 1 happened last season, she did not know how to be the glue that held them together. She was more like the nail polish remover eating at the glue.

Quote:
do you not renew the contract because of the fans or do you renew the contract to continue to build and maintain consistency for the future?

Good question. This season's team would be playing better regardless of the coach. They have more talent, tenacity, and determination.

So.......I didn't answer your question, did I? ;) - No fans - No League. Does a winning season bring back fans?

Ohio Gaucho · Guest Joined: 12 Jun 2002 Posts: 65 Location: Salem, OH

I would like to see someone like Tom Collen in the job. Looks like he may be headed to Nebraska, but ... One thing, I don't know how salaries compare (not well?) BTW, he DID earn two Master's degrees, Miami U now confesses:
http://www.Womenscollegehoops.com/collen.htm
PREVIOUS HEADLINE
COLLEN IN RUNNING AT NEBRASKA, COULD END UP IN WNBA

Carol Fegenbush · Guest Joined: 21 Jun 2002 Posts: 13 Location: California

:( Whats up with Gillom 6-21, Kayte played 3 min. Rely to much on her in the post, fall away shots arent falling... Swoops shot was more than a 1 sec. shot. Must of been the fouls that were not called If your missing all those shots, then your getting bumped and blocked alot... Swoops had 5 blocks, 2 maybe were clean... Subs , the bench should not be playing only 3 min, or Jay s had a great game and made things happen... Not even a few minutes... boo.... Don't use the Fowards to there advant. Who was guarding Swoops? They couldnt block the inbound pass , With Tuvic, Gil, Who was tired by then.....Was just worn out....Mercury should of won that.. ][/img]

Hillary · Guest Joined: 22 Jun 2002 Posts: 10 Location: Phoenix

We need a new coach because being middle of the pack, or doing "ok" is not something to aspire to! We need someone who can motivate our team to be the best they can be, not wonder if they will ever do anything right.

At the risk of repeating myself from another board, Cooper is one dimensional, she YELLS! (ok to be fair, she is really two-dimensional she also sulks!)

mb, thanks for the heads up on this board
gia - I wondered where you went!

cbibat · Guest Joined: 14 Jun 2002 Posts: 232

Hillary....I agree that being in the middle of the pack is not something to aspire to, but all the preseason 'experts' put us at the bottom of the pile based on talent, so based on the wisdom of the pundits we're doing really well...... :wink:

Gia... regarding our 'chicken and egg' fans/winning issue - does winning bring back fans? Not necessarily - league-wise look at Washington, has lead the league in attendance and only started winning this year; Charlotte, had a terrific second half of the season but didn't draw; LA, fickle LA - fans started showing up when Cooper started coaching and they started winning; Houston, think fans have always shown up; Phoenix, haven't we been losing fans since the 1st season?

Wonder how a decision is made in a situation like ours - right now we are winning - team and coach...... winning hasn't increased our attendance this year I don't think

gia · Guest

Another of Jeff's articles today - Twins won't stop Cooper from returning next year
http://www.azcentral.com/sports/mercury/0624mercnb0624.html

"General manager Seth Sulka said his evaluation of Cooper is ongoing and there are no major red flags in the way of her returning for a third season."

I'll hoist a flag..........if Cooper's contract is renewed next season, my season tickets won't be. For me it's not a matter of whether they have a winning season or not. It's just too frustrating as a fan to go through another season with her at the helm. Sure they won but last night was the worst as far as her ego getting in the way of making smart decisions.

caune · Guest Joined: 12 Jun 2002 Posts: 1562 Location: Phoenix

They can fire Coop just as long as they don't hire Tom Chambers, Dan Marlje, Elliot Perry, Horatico Lamas or any ex-Sun besides John Shumate (who has experience) to coach!
A real live experienced coach would be so nice!

Keegan · Guest Joined: 13 Jun 2002 Posts: 977

Bring Graffy back!

Down with Coop!

Play Vealy!

Up with the platypuses! (sorry had to put that in ;) )

skew11 · Guest Joined: 12 Jun 2002 Posts: 372

:lol: :lol: how bout Sir Charles Barkley ?? Bet some good quotes would come out of those press conf. and team meetings :!: :lol:

Hillary · Guest Joined: 22 Jun 2002 Posts: 10 Location: Phoenix

gia,

you know I am with you, it was with great pain that we even renewed this year, Cooper being the central reason why.

After lots of confab, our loyalty to Jen, Lisa and few others really pushed us to say "let's do it for the team".

I think it's interesting that Jeff M is actually stating that many fans are unhappy, and about the reaction that Lisa gets when she goes in.

Seth, BC, Jerry, if you guys are losing money now, just wait till next year! I promise you I have spoken to many fans who don't post on the boards, we may be the vocal group but we are NOT the minority.

Let Cooper go at the end of the season, and whatever you do, don't be foolish enough to trade Lisa!

gotnext · Guest Joined: 13 Jun 2002 Posts: 28

RELOCATED POST
Originally Posted by bballprincess31
24 Jun 2002 09:33 pm
Post subject:
Cynthia Cooper...you are the Weakest Link...GOODBYE!!!!!!!!!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I along with a majority of Phoenix Mercury fans I too agree that Cynthia must go. If you have read the messages on azcentral.com, all of the people have stated that they feel the same way. A lot of people have also said that if Lisa Harrison were to go, they would go also. I would have to put myself in that category as well. Some people out there would think that that would be fair weather fan-ish, but that would not be the case. This would not be the first thing that happened. I would probably come to some games, maybe 2 or 3 instead of every home game (what I do now). This also has to do with where I live, but regardless.

I hope that Cynthia gets fired. Hopefully the Mercury's management are brave enough to do the right thing.

gia · Guest

No one is going to fire her. The most that will happen is that her contract is not renewed or she decides to leave at the end of the season. Unless something major happens, she's here for the duration of this season at the least.

Maybe Van Chancellor will decide it's time to step down after this season and she'll move on to Houston where everyone is gaga over her. That would be the ideal scenario.

Red · Guest Joined: 14 Jun 2002 Posts: 32 Location: Glendale, AZ

We finally get rid of the soap opera with Brandy and here we go again! Ugh :(

I don't know anyone in my area that isn't more than disappointed in Cooper as a coach....myself included. I just don't enjoy the games like I used to because of Cynthia's unprofessional manner. No adult professional should be treated the way our players are treated by their coach during a game. Lisa plays with such heart, I really miss seeing her play when she is not in the game. I have to admit, I came away from our win with Linda at the helm thinking "Gosh, why can't the game time environment be like this all the time?" I for one (among many) would have loved to see Carie Graff as head coach. She is really sharp and knows the game inside and out. Moreover, she gives the women on the team the respect they deserve and trusts her players to get the job done.

I only have one suggestion, maybe if we are stuck with Cynthia the rest of the year, let's all chip in and get her a new break-away Italian Armanie suit with a Merc uniform to wear underneath that has a Huge Number 1 on it. That way, she can sub herself in and out of the game and we won't have to listen to her yell so much. :idea: :) Don't know if basketball shoes go too well with an Armanie but you never know.....it might be trendy. :?

gia · Guest

Hiring Cooper to coach the Mercury would be like hiring Reggie Miller to coach the NY Knicks. Seems like a great idea when you come up with it but hopefully someone with more sense slaps you into reality.

Playoffs or not, I have a feeling that the Merc season ticket dept is going to have to cut back on their staff next year if they stay with the status quo. I honestly don't know many people (besides Hannah) who would be thrilled to have her here beyond this season. What's interesting is the people who begged me to give her a chance last year are now saying "time's up!" Anyone have a line on little red flags to wave at games? ;)

capsman · Guest Joined: 14 Jun 2002 Posts: 31

We need to all get signs that say "Bench Coop!" to wave at the games :twisted:

mb · Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2002 2:55 pm Post subject:

Agreeing with many things...

ie. we are vocal, yet we are not the minority

if Coop stays and Lisa goes, noone will renew season tickets

if Lisa stays and Coop is still here, many will not renew

Where gan we purchase a couple hundred red flaags?

My signs will say "Start Lisa, bench Coop!"

Also agree with Keegan:

Bring back Graffy, play Vealy,

Down with Coop, up with the platypi!

cbibat · Guest Joined: 14 Jun 2002 Posts: 232

nope.... if it's not Cooper then it should be someone other than Graf.... is Graf really any better than Maher? Other than the Aussies like her better...haven't seen anything to even indicate Graf's a good assistant coach....

Carol Fegenbush · Guest Joined: 21 Jun 2002 Posts: 13 Location: California

Well, you cant totally blame the Coach, the Mercury org. hired her, in name only.... Should of got a College coach, Dawn Stan, is Coaching College first and getting her feet wet, Cooper should of got her feet wet, How about Jody from OK... Shed be great!!!!! This remember is a business , to make money the name makes money.... :roll: But there is a point when the team needs to decide whats enough , sulking isnt going to make it any better and yelling at players isnt going to make it better... Go to the bench more.... and EVERY TEAM NEEDS TO LEAVE THERE ROSTERS ALONE AND QUIT MAKING CHANGES>>> Look at the Trans board ..Still Waving and ACTIVA... To many changes this year... Look whos the bottom of the boards ... Sac. and Detroit.... They did the most changing..and lost to injuries... Maybe WNBA needs to carry more than 11 on the Roster.... Should of Brought back Shea m...