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CamrnCrz1974 · Joined: 16 Jun 2003 Posts: 1689 Location: Central Phoenix

In 2005, only 1 team has three players ranked among top 13 in efficiency: Phoenix, with Taurasi, Taylor and Vodichkova.

Seth Sulka got Penny Taylor to commit to playing in 2004, when she was heavily favoring sitting out the season for the Olympics. Sulka also was signed Vodichkova, who put up career-best numbers in 2005.

No one else gave DeForge a chance in this league (she was cut from other teams' training camps), and Phoenix picked her up. She has averaged double figures each of her three years here.. not a bad pick up for nothing…

Sandora Irvin showed she can play, look at rookie per 40 minutes numbers… so can Angelina Williams. It was a matter of playing time, which was the coach's call.

Last year...Shereka Wright instead of Chandi jones---maybe we missed on that one, lets see comparison with equal opportunity. We definitely missed on Brunson, but we had Plenette Pierson and Adrian Williams at the time. Still, Brunson's upside and athleticism should have been enough to take her. Then again, we have Ashley, who is a center, not a power forward. It was not a bad call, but it was a call that could have been better.

Seth hired the coach that most people wanted… she was female… and she was promoted from being an assistant coach in our league… both things people complain about when they aren’t done…

Now, looking back...

Phoenix was 20-12 in 2000. Cheryl Miller resigned. The ORGANIZATION (namely, Colangelo) hires Cynthia Cooper. The leading scorer, rebounder, assts, steals, fg% and ALL-STAR from 2000 is a training camp holdout then is suspended for the season…

In 2001, the projected starting lineup is Reed, Gillom, Stepanova, Fallon, and Timms, with exciting rookie Kristen Veal on board. Timmsy was injured for most of the season, and Reed was suspended again.

Cooper wanted Pettis traded...the 8th pick was traded for Grubin and Tracey Reid.

In 2002, Fallon bails on returning for the season only FOUR days before the draft. During training camp, Stepamova discovers she is pregnant.

In 2003, the plan was to tear down the old and rebuild the roundation through the draft. Shumated insisted on Tamicha Jackson in the dispersal draft.

How can these three years be put all on Seth? who was not even focused on the basketball/personnel sisde, but was in charge of business operations and was an overseer of basketball, not an exclusive decision-maker?

Now, Seth has had the player personnel responsibilities for 2004 and 2005. During these two years, we had the 7th best record in the WNBA out of 13 teams, meaning we are smack in the middle. Now, if the pattern of no playoff appearances continues, then there may have to be changes made. But let us not start blaming Seth for the Iraq War, Hurrican Katrina, and everything else, when it isn't warranted.

mandih23 · Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 3:01 pm Post subject:

all true.. well put!!

CamrnCrz1974 · Joined: 16 Jun 2003 Posts: 1689 Location: Central Phoenix

I know some believe me to be a Seth Defender. I am...to a point. Seth did not have sole discretion w/r/t player personnel decisions. It is important to look at Seth's role in the context of job performance and time, not blame him for everything. For 2004 and 2005, Seth has been in charge of player personnel.

And remember...previous mistakes hurt us long after they are made. Where would Phoenix be if Cynthia Cooper had not insisted on trading the 8th pick in 2002? We would have selected Michelle Snow! Then, the loss of Maria in 2002 would not have been as bad...

potd41

CamrnCrz1974 wrote: In 2005, only 1 team has three players ranked among top 13 in efficiency: Phoenix, with Taurasi, Taylor and Vodichkova.

Seth Sulka got Penny Taylor to commit to playing in 2004, when she was heavily favoring sitting out the season for the Olympics. Sulka also was signed Vodichkova, who put up career-best numbers in 2005.

No one else gave DeForge a chance in this league (she was cut from other teams' training camps), and Phoenix picked her up. She has averaged double figures each of her three years here.. not a bad pick up for nothing…

Sandora Irvin showed she can play, look at rookie per 40 minutes numbers… so can Angelina Williams. It was a matter of playing time, which was the coach's call.

Last year...Shereka Wright instead of Chandi jones---maybe we missed on that one, lets see comparison with equal opportunity. We definitely missed on Brunson, but we had Plenette Pierson and Adrian Williams at the time. Still, Brunson's upside and athleticism should have been enough to take her. Then again, we have Ashley, who is a center, not a power forward. It was not a bad call, but it was a call that could have been better.

Seth hired the coach that most people wanted… she was female… and she was promoted from being an assistant coach in our league… both things people complain about when they aren’t done…

Now, looking back...

Phoenix was 20-12 in 2000. Cheryl Miller resigned. The ORGANIZATION (namely, Colangelo) hires Cynthia Cooper. The leading scorer, rebounder, assts, steals, fg% and ALL-STAR from 2000 is a training camp holdout then is suspended for the season…

In 2001, the projected starting lineup is Reed, Gillom, Stepanova, Fallon, and Timms, with exciting rookie Kristen Veal on board. Timmsy was injured for most of the season, and Reed was suspended again.

Cooper wanted Pettis traded...the 8th pick was traded for Grubin and Tracey Reid.

In 2002, Fallon bails on returning for the season only FOUR days before the draft. During training camp, Stepamova discovers she is pregnant.

In 2003, the plan was to tear down the old and rebuild the roundation through the draft. Shumated insisted on Tamicha Jackson in the dispersal draft.

How can these three years be put all on Seth? who was not even focused on the basketball/personnel sisde, but was in charge of business operations and was an overseer of basketball, not an exclusive decision-maker?

Now, Seth has had the player personnel responsibilities for 2004 and 2005. During these two years, we had the 7th best record in the WNBA out of 13 teams, meaning we are smack in the middle. Now, if the pattern of no playoff appearances continues, then there may have to be changes made. But let us not start blaming Seth for the Iraq War, Hurrican Katrina, and everything else, when it isn't warranted.

Gee, what do ya know; I agree with you on this...LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!

SportsFan48 · Joined: 12 Jun 2002 Posts: 1138

potd said:
Quote: Gee, what do ya know; I agree with you on this...LOL

Somewhere in hell there is an icicle. :lol:

Very well said, cam. You could have, however, named some names instead of the vague references. I know who you are talking about, but there are a few who post here who probably weren't able to read when some of those things happened. You could have saved us all from the envitable question repeated over and over...."who is that?"

For the record, I am a supporter of Seth as well. As in all businesses someone has to take the responsiblity for not meeting expectations. Unfortunately, when the real responsibility is the players or situations involving the players either indirectly or directly, it is often the coach or gm who has to take the brunt of the blame.

Part of the problem has been that many people have had higher expectations for the Mercury in 2004 and 2005. Many made the mistake of believing their own hype of Taurasi as the savior of all that ails the Mercury (something I have always was unfair not only to Dee but to the organization as well). Others conveniently forget about players not being available to play when they should or cry about letting players go early.

This post is getting long...so I will break it up. Just because I feel like answering, IMO, some of the arguments that some will have.

SportsFan48 · Joined: 12 Jun 2002 Posts: 1138

2004: What went wrong? We had two #1 picks. We had Diana Taurasi for goodness sake. We had the coach we wanted. We had a new COO. We had women owners. We should have made the playoffs.

The real argument here is not in what we had but in what we didn't have....a solid post player to compliment our outstanding front court trio.
It is, IMO, a legit ament argument. However, you addressed some or most of the issue, cam. We could have had Brunson, who in hindsight would have been a good pick. We would not have had Shereka or Ashley if we had picked her and I am not convinced she would have made much of a difference her rookie year. But she would have contributed this season, big time.

As for Shereka vs Chandi....I would take Shereka in a heartbeat. First of all, IMO, Freakie Reek would have outplayed Ms Jones this season if she had been heathy. Lets compare offseasons and see if it tells anything about the players.

Shereka came into camp stronger and better. She realized what her strengths are (slashing) and realized that she needed to get stronger to use that strength in the WNBA. I honestly don't know if I have ever seen Shereka without a smile on her face. I know, some of you are wondering what that has to do with her being a good player, but players with Shereka's personality are needed on very much on teams, especially teams with high pressure.

Ms Jones, on the other hand came into training camp late and really got on the bad side of coach Bill. Could be the problem was his, but in my experience, situations like this usually have two sides to them and both have some blame. I really don't know Ms Jones. She may be a wonderful team mate and a very hard worker as well as a fairly good basketball player. I just happen to think we got those same things in Shereka.

SportsFan48 · Joined: 12 Jun 2002 Posts: 1138

2005: We still have Taurasi and we added much needed depth to our post. We not longer have our women owners, but a new owner who is commited to making the organization a success. We still have our coach with a competent staff, but a staff lacking in post player experience.

We have players coming and going. We have a very lopsided schedule. We have to play in the west. Woe is us.

I don't think Seth had much to do with the schedule, but many would argue that Seth was responsible for the players coming and going. He was. What would you do different?

Say to Kamila?? ...."I am sorry, but you can not return home after your winter season. If you can not be in camp at the start or within a day or two of ending your season, don't come at all. I can not believe that with all the money we will be giving you that you can not give us the same commitment you give your european team."

Or to Penny??...."Would you please not play so well in Italy so your team isn't in the finals? If you wouldn't play like an MVP you wouldn't have led your team there. I do, however, appreciate that you were able to sweep the finals, thus making your debut sooner, but in the future, try to play so you can end your season before training camp starts. BTW, you should just ignore that rule about having to update your visa by returning to Austrailia. It is a stupid rule anyway and I am sure it wasn't meant for WNBA players."

Or to Maria???...."So you say you can come but only for that short time frame? I realize I have been trying to get you back here, but that is only because we have done so poorly since you have been gone. If you can not come for the whole thing, then forget it. 6'8" International all-stars are a dime a dozen. We can get the rights to any we want. That is why you were so easy to replace when you decided that Phoenix was too hot for bebe. Stay at home.....or come when and only when you can commit for the entire season. We DON'T WANT YOU otherwise. Better yet, tell your national team to take a hike. You are going to play in the WNBA and so what if they are going to take away your six figure income and ban you to Siberia in the dead of winter. Maybe if you get cold enough, the summers in Phoenix won't seem so hot. "

I realize that my comments above are not very realistic, but so are (in my opinion) the expectations for Seth to have these players in camp, on time, when they have other conflicts and are opposed. I guess the question is, "Why can't Seth get them to commit when it seems like no other teams have the same problems?" I guess that is also a legit ament question, however, I have another one. "Are you willing to give up the rights to these players without any compensation, so another gm can talk them into playing for their team?"

I would much rather have Kamila, Penny, and Maria here playing in Phoenix for part of a season than see any of them playing even ONE game for someone else. I would imagine that Seth agrees (on most occasions), however, you all are entitled to your opinion.

SportsFan48 · Joined: 12 Jun 2002 Posts: 1138

SORRY....last but/or least.

This is Seth's year. If we can not do it this year...then he will most likely need to step aside and let someone else try. That is assuming we can get a coach and it is evident on the court that she/he knows what they are doing.

We are going to lose a young player in the expansion draft. We should pick up a fairly good player in the regular draft and possibly pick up a solid veteran to help out, i.e. Kamila. We could have all our players here before the season starts and still here and healthy at the end of the season. We could have at least 4 home games in June.

I'm done.
.
.
.
......For now.

1carol · Joined: 17 Jul 2003 Posts: 1050 Location: Phoenix AZ

Thanks for the history lesson. I'll bet I'm not the only one that wasn't aware of many things you mentioned. I now have a factual foundation for my instinctive belief in Seth as the best GM in AZ. Barring unforseen circumstances, we're going to have one hell of a fantastic team next season. It may not be what I wanted, but we now have a great chance for the draft lottery giving us a pick in a deep draft with tremendous options.

SuziQ · Joined: 17 Apr 2004 Posts: 288 Location: Phoenix

I like Seth, too. As I had previously posted, I feel that the line-up we had this season, with Maria et al, was the finest we've ever had in this franchise. And we have Seth to thank for that. He gambled, and some of it paid off, some of it didn't. But at least he's taking the steps to get there, and you never get anywhere without being aggressive.

To steal a phrase from a fan on the Rebkell board, we do NOT have a FFO. We have always suffered from not having as good a coach as our lineup needs. Carrie was great, but I agree w/ criticism about not playing the bench or rookies enough to help them when Maria left or we had injuries. And bless her heart, she's just not a post coach, and we need one.

We have a FCP problem, not a FFO problem - that's what Cam's analysis tells me.

(f***ed coaching position)

CamrnCrz1974 · Joined: 16 Jun 2003 Posts: 1689 Location: Central Phoenix

Quote: I realize that my comments above are not very realistic, but so are (in my opinion) the expectations for Seth to have these players in camp, on time, when they have other conflicts and are opposed.

Exactly. If the WNBA paid more, it would be easier to get the players her at the start of training camp. Also, we have a team with a heavy international flavor...national team commitments have to be considered.